Niklas Anzinger: Decentralised Cities & Crypto-Driven Biotech

[00:00:03] Niklas Anzinger: I think is like the secret sauce in Prospera that we want to develop a system that is not entirely different. So we are still operating under the same standards. We're still using common law, we still use regulation, right. And like third party enforcement of these regulations if something goes wrong. But we just have a different mechanisms, how we sort out the good regulations from the bad in ways which doesn't happen in the current system.

[00:00:35] Jarrad Hope: Hi, I'm Jared Hope, co-founder of logos, a fully decentralized, privacy preserving and politically neutral tech stack. Today we're talking with Niklas Anzinger, founder and CEO of Vitalia City and founder of Infinita VC. Thanks for for joining me, Niklas.

[00:00:51] Niklas Anzinger: Fantastic to be here, Jarrad.

[00:00:53] Jarrad Hope: So I wanted to chat with you because, I mean, you've been coming up on the network state scene and making some some waves on that front. But I had the pleasure of of visiting Vitalia City in Prospera recently. I'm still on the island of Roatan as we're recording this.

[00:01:09] Niklas Anzinger: Oh, you are right now.

[00:01:10] Jarrad Hope: Yeah,

[00:01:10] Niklas Anzinger: Very cool.

[00:01:11] Jarrad Hope: Yeah,

[00:01:11] Niklas Anzinger: I'm going

[00:01:11] Jarrad Hope: Yeah.

[00:01:11] Niklas Anzinger: To be back

[00:01:11] Jarrad Hope: I'm on.

[00:01:11] Niklas Anzinger: On Monday.

[00:01:12] Jarrad Hope: Oh, cool. Well, yeah, if you're around, I'd love to catch up. And face

[00:01:16] Niklas Anzinger: 

[00:01:16] Jarrad Hope: To face but, yeah, I was just super impressed with what you're doing there, and so I wanted to know a bit more and get other people to, you know, spread the word, so to speak.

[00:01:26] Niklas Anzinger: Sure.

[00:01:26] Jarrad Hope: 

[00:01:26] Niklas Anzinger: What was the impression. What can you see physically or what surprised you.

[00:01:30] Jarrad Hope: Well, I mean, the first thing that surprised me, actually, was the entrance into into pristine Bay and Prospera. Right. Like the security, my believers got a new a new detail there, and there are a lot more thorough. So so that was super. That was the most surprising thing. Initial impression. But then once you come up the up the, the hill, you see this Bitcoin center which is, you know, inspiring to see. And then you come over and you see this wonderful valley of like green lush gardens and beautiful buildings. So.

[00:02:06] Niklas Anzinger: Got

[00:02:06] Jarrad Hope: And

[00:02:06] Niklas Anzinger: A bit

[00:02:06] Jarrad Hope: Then,

[00:02:06] Niklas Anzinger: Of

[00:02:06] Jarrad Hope: Of

[00:02:06] Niklas Anzinger: A

[00:02:06] Jarrad Hope: Course.

[00:02:07] Niklas Anzinger: Utopian vibe, right?

[00:02:08] Jarrad Hope: Right, right. Absolutely. And then just getting to, you know going to the Vitalia Dome and, you know, seeing all these amazing talks and, you know, the, you know, visiting the beta building and Duna it was incredible to see that. I think you're taking how much occupancy of the Duna building will be for for Talia.

[00:02:28] Niklas Anzinger: So about 4,050% maybe.

[00:02:31] Jarrad Hope: Yeah, right. So

[00:02:32] Niklas Anzinger: 

[00:02:32] Jarrad Hope: Yeah, really exciting times. So I'd like to, but before we get into like what Vitalia is biotechnology

[00:02:38] Niklas Anzinger: 

[00:02:39] Jarrad Hope: And

[00:02:39] Niklas Anzinger: 

[00:02:39] Jarrad Hope: Infinita, I kind of want to know a little bit more about, you know, your life story and like, you know, how

[00:02:43] Niklas Anzinger: 

[00:02:44] Jarrad Hope: Did

[00:02:44] Niklas Anzinger: 

[00:02:44] Jarrad Hope: You get to this point where you're on an island in the middle of the Caribbean?

[00:02:48] Niklas Anzinger: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. For sure. I'm originally from Germany. So I lived and grew up in a town close to Munich, the city close to Munich called Freising, which is the next city to the airport. And for a long part of my life up until about two, two and a half years ago, I felt that kind of my intellectual interests and sort of my entrepreneurial endeavors were a bit disconnected, not fully, but I was always into the world of ideas. I spent the first half of my career in economics, philosophy, international relations. I was in Washington DC, think tanks and management consulting. So I found all that like very inspiring and I learned a lot from it. And I had really good professors and a really good education in like analytical philosophy and economics is definitely something that's now stuck with me. But I also felt I always felt it was a bit disconnected. So what do I do with it? Right. So there's it doesn't impact anyone whether or not I'm right on these ideas.

[00:03:48] Jarrad Hope: Right?

[00:03:48] Niklas Anzinger: Right. So you know, people for decades wrote about like free banking and stuff like that, but nobody cares, right? Because nobody's going to listen to like, let's reform the fed or something like that. Like, this is not how things work until the Bitcoin white paper came around. Right.

[00:04:05] Jarrad Hope: Write.

[00:04:06] Niklas Anzinger: So. So I was attracted to technology and entrepreneurship, right? Wasn't then the Bitcoin white paper, but

[00:04:12] Jarrad Hope: About

[00:04:12] Niklas Anzinger: I was already quite attracted to that

[00:04:14] Jarrad Hope: Responsible.

[00:04:14] Niklas Anzinger: Space. But I wasn't yet into technology or startups. But I was only 26. I joined like a really cool startup based in Berlin. So I really got the hang of entrepreneurship. I became an operator and led teams. I developed new products that later raised the series B, so I felt like I learned the ropes of entrepreneurship and I was ready at that point after five years to start my own journey. But I still couldn't find like, where does my thinking I want to, you know, see the world go better in many different ways? With what can I do practically. Right. So I was in these days when Covid started, I was looking into healthcare and everything that's broken with it. And my conclusion was, you know, even if you have the best, you know, AI for drug development or like open source access to all the medical data in the world, we still have one big bottleneck, which is the FDA and medical regulations all over

[00:05:09] Jarrad Hope: 

[00:05:09] Niklas Anzinger: The world, which which have been come progressively worse, right? And same as with money and with Bitcoin. We know why that is. Like we there's economists who've been written about that for decades, and we know what we would need to do to change things. But the FDA or Congress and politicians just don't care, right? You can't reform these existing large incumbent monopoly institutions. The only thing you could do, or what you can do in the private market when you face, like a big incumbent player, or monopoly like an IBM is to start a new startup, right? But that doesn't really work for these political institutions, right? Or so I thought, until I found prosper, which is exactly that. Right. So it

[00:05:54] Jarrad Hope: Gotcha.

[00:05:54] Niklas Anzinger: Is building a city in a protocol, basically for building a city. Right. So the legal and governance

[00:06:01] Jarrad Hope: Both.

[00:06:02] Niklas Anzinger: System. Right. So it's a common law based legal system. And the idea is once you get land somewhere and especially economic zone with legal autonomy, then you can build an environment there that's fosters entrepreneurship, right? So think of a Singapore in a box like the conditions that made Singapore Dubai successful. You basically take the software of that and then you get land and legal autonomy and rights, and then you get the next, the next to buy it, the next Singapore. So that's what we building. That's what prosperous building with its first iteration. And I saw that two years ago and I just believed in it. I was like, this team is credible. It's great. It was like a a group of Honduran reformers that started it like more than ten years ago, and a team of Latin American entrepreneurs, most of them, and also some Americans that supported it. So it was like a group of people that were super aligned with this space of ideas and like, really capable to execute it. They've really figured things out on the legal and governance side. So that was became very bullish on the prosper regulatory system and how it could, like, fundamentally solve all these problems that we have in these areas of technology that are stagnating, like healthcare and biotech and hard tech and much of like crypto and financial. When I say stagnating, I mean relative to what we could do, right? We're still progressing in many areas, but we could do it much, much faster.

[00:07:26] Jarrad Hope: Yeah.

[00:07:26] Niklas Anzinger: So that's what compelled me to start Infinita, a fund that was looking into these startup sectors that could really benefit from that regulatory advantage, some of which were already there. And it turned out that longevity and biotech became the most promising vertical for many different reasons. Right. So we had like one really successful startup here in Minicircle, which is on the best way to produce a blockbuster therapy Follistatin gene therapy. Second was something that's very scalable, right? So there's more than a million tourists here coming each year. We could build a medical tourism hub and doing research clinical trials, you can do a couple of dozens of them within one clinic, right? So we could do much, much more of that. So each successive startup after Minicircle can basically follow the same protocol and we optimize that. So that was a big reason. Second, nobody else is doing it right. So we have basically a monopoly if we once we succeed here. Third, there was a strong pull effect from the longevity community because they realized they need to do something different because in the existing institutions, they're not succeeding, right? Because aging is not considered a disease by the FDA. So they're cut off of a lot of the funding. So.

[00:08:42] Jarrad Hope: I guess, like at that point, like just to to clarify. Right. Like you know, you're seeing these longevities that are actually hitting the same walls. And so they are a market for vitalia. And taking advantage of this regulatory arbitrage. But like and I know why that is the case, but I was wondering if you could articulate, you know, why you think this is the case in our existing political systems.

[00:09:09] Niklas Anzinger: The case that,

[00:09:10] Jarrad Hope: We

[00:09:10] Niklas Anzinger: 

[00:09:10] Jarrad Hope: Can't

[00:09:10] Niklas Anzinger: That

[00:09:11] Jarrad Hope: Reform.

[00:09:11] Niklas Anzinger: There's a.

[00:09:11] Jarrad Hope: And

[00:09:11] Niklas Anzinger: Yeah,

[00:09:12] Jarrad Hope: Like, you know,

[00:09:12] Niklas Anzinger: Sure.

[00:09:12] Jarrad Hope: We have to create a different zone in the first place.

[00:09:15] Niklas Anzinger: Yeah, yeah, yeah. So just to put you a bit in a real situation, these are people I keep talking to, and they're like the best or leading scientists in their field. Right? They have a novel therapy. Something that's actually very well proven over decades. It's just really like the use case that it's not proven for. And they have, like, high net worth individuals that want, like their life saved. And they're like, why? And then it's like, okay, I now need to prove that this technology, that I'm like the best person in the world to know about this, two other people that don't know about it for ten years so I can save that person's life. That's kind of that's kind of weird, but

[00:09:55] Jarrad Hope: 

[00:09:55] Niklas Anzinger: That's happening on a massive scale, right? And hundreds of millions of people's lives could be saved if we if that wasn't the case, if there was a better system, a system where it wouldn't take ten years until you're allowed to save someone's life. But of course, we want to prevent the bad stuff get better. But much of the good stuff. But the system is really overoptimized for preventing the bad stuff, right? So of course you prevent the bad stuff. You know the child is safe if you put it in a cage. So it can't like run around. And but the better way to to treat the child, to be like a thriving being is if you educate it on dangers. Right? And if you allow it to or if you allow a market of different players to provide different kinds of guardrails that work better for different people and different use cases, rather than having like one monolithic organization. And there's like very specific a very specific analysis you can make about the incentive that an organization like that faces. Right? So the

[00:11:00] Jarrad Hope: So.

[00:11:00] Niklas Anzinger: Fda, the Food and Drug Administration, they're basically an agency that says yes or no to new drugs or therapies. Right. So you need to do a lot of research to prove to them that you should be able to bring this to the market. Right. So let's start there. Okay. Everyone's like, oh, that sounds good. We want someone to ensure these things are safe and effective. Right. Who are you to. You do not want like safe and effective drugs. It's like yes, I want safe and effective drugs. Right? I'm just doubting that this is the right way to get it. And just to throw some data points in like before, 1962 now takes ten years to approve any drug. Before 1962, it took six months, right.

[00:11:42] Jarrad Hope: Wow.

[00:11:42] Niklas Anzinger: Because that was a limit by Congress on the FDA how long they could track for drug approvals. Right.

[00:11:48] Jarrad Hope: All right.

[00:11:48] Niklas Anzinger: And it wasn't like medical anarchy then. Like, in fact, it was a golden age of medical innovation, like almost all the big pharma companies were born before that time, right? We had penicillin, we had the vaccines, we had the eradication of infectious diseases and the trend of accelerating longer health and lifespans was before 1962. Right. So how much safer and effective did it get us? We really there's actually no proof it got us safe and effective drugs.

[00:12:19] Jarrad Hope: So

[00:12:19] Niklas Anzinger: Right. So it

[00:12:20] Jarrad Hope: What's.

[00:12:20] Niklas Anzinger: Really isn't.

[00:12:20] Jarrad Hope: Yeah. Right. I mean, what was the event in 1962 that led, you know, Congress to change that or, you know, for the dynamics to change

[00:12:29] Niklas Anzinger: 

[00:12:29] Jarrad Hope: And, you know, expand the bureaucracy and like the clinical

[00:12:34] Niklas Anzinger: 

[00:12:34] Jarrad Hope: Trials and the the entire process around that.

[00:12:36] Niklas Anzinger: Thalidomide. So thalidomide was a

[00:12:39] Jarrad Hope: 

[00:12:39] Niklas Anzinger: Drug that was used by pregnant mothers. And it had side effects on their pregnancies with led to babies born with deformities.

[00:12:49] Jarrad Hope: Right.

[00:12:49] Niklas Anzinger: So it's like an extremely visceral case of a public health disaster.

[00:12:55] Jarrad Hope: 

[00:12:55] Niklas Anzinger: Right. It's exactly what you don't want to happen. It's like a very specific story that led to it. But it didn't happen in the United States, by the way. But the FDA, fortunately had a good regulator, someone who was like, we should not allow this, right?

[00:13:09] Jarrad Hope: 

[00:13:10] Niklas Anzinger: And then they said, all right, we need to make extra sure that can't happen here, even though it didn't even happen in the United States. Right. So that's when typically politicians come to the forefront and say, I'm going to do everything to make this like safer or whatever. The only thing that typically do is make new laws, right? So they're rather it's rather rare that they say, okay, we're going to like remove laws, right? Or we're going to make these laws kind of slimmer or easier or something like that. It's always like new laws that make things like stricter because that has like widespread public appeal. Even though if you look at it from like an expert or technical point of view, that might not necessarily be the solution. All right. So comparable examples like nine over 11. Right. So we need to make airplanes

[00:13:52] Jarrad Hope: Don't get me

[00:13:52] Niklas Anzinger: Safe

[00:13:53] Jarrad Hope: Started

[00:13:53] Niklas Anzinger: In.

[00:13:53] Jarrad Hope: On nine over 11. Yeah.

[00:13:54] Niklas Anzinger: Exactly. So we had the Patriot Act and we had like a crazy amount of airport security as a result. And you know, how necessary is it like that you put out your laptop or like, you know, you can't take liquids with you below 150ml. Like

[00:14:09] Jarrad Hope: 

[00:14:09] Niklas Anzinger: All that stuff is really pointless. But

[00:14:12] Jarrad Hope: Yeah.

[00:14:12] Niklas Anzinger: That's that's actually how these regulatory agencies work in almost

[00:14:16] Jarrad Hope: 

[00:14:16] Niklas Anzinger: Any industry, right? There's only one way which is up, which is more regulations, because, you know, the politicians and the staffers of the regulator, they want to expand their office, right? The way they get

[00:14:28] Jarrad Hope: Right?

[00:14:28] Niklas Anzinger: Like promotions, the way they can pay people more or the way they get more positions is expansion, right? So they don't make a profit, right? So they don't have an incentive to reduce costs in any way. That would mean cutting positions.

[00:14:41] Jarrad Hope: Yeah.

[00:14:41] Niklas Anzinger: So there is a logic to bureaucracies expanding that you see throughout with all these agencies. And the FDA is basically an example of probably the most powerful public agency in the world at an advanced stage in that life cycle. Right? So they've been around for a long time and they are extreme. They regulate like 40 or more percent of US consumer products. Right.

[00:15:04] Jarrad Hope: Wow.

[00:15:05] Niklas Anzinger: And when it comes to medical they regulate more than 50% of the world market when it comes to drugs and therapies. Right. Because other regulators and other countries actually even worse than the FDA in many ways. Right. So other countries have things like price controls on drugs,

[00:15:23] Jarrad Hope: 

[00:15:24] Niklas Anzinger: Which means there's no incentive to innovate on drugs in the therapies in other markets or develop them there. Right. So the FDA almost has something close to a global monopoly. So either that so the regulators or the politicians in other countries do it even worse, or the FDA goes to other countries and says this is the gold standard, you should do it too. And then these countries have these like very extensive regulations, but they're very much understaffed to implement them. But then if you're like an entrepreneur in like a Latin American country like Chile or Argentina, like the regulation sits in some health ministry and you're like, so what do I do? Who do I talk? And there's no one really you can talk to. But you know, if you don't do what you're supposed to be doing but you don't know what you're supposed, then they can still shut you down if you do something wrong or like imprison or fine you. So that

[00:16:15] Jarrad Hope: Right.

[00:16:15] Niklas Anzinger: Is a

[00:16:16] Jarrad Hope: The

[00:16:16] Niklas Anzinger: Disastrous.

[00:16:16] Jarrad Hope: Cost of innovation right. In this industry. Right?

[00:16:19] Niklas Anzinger: Yeah, yeah.

[00:16:20] Jarrad Hope: That.

[00:16:20] Niklas Anzinger: So that is really a disastrous state for biomedical innovation all over the world. And that is despite the amazing science and technology we have. Right? So when you look at the science news there's a very real sense. And that's true, that there is a lot of progress, right? We've decoded the human genome, the language of life. Right.

[00:16:41] Jarrad Hope: 

[00:16:41] Niklas Anzinger: So we can directly alter the we can directly like edit the language of life through things

[00:16:49] Jarrad Hope: 

[00:16:49] Niklas Anzinger: Like Crispr mRNA genetic. And there's different kinds of genetic engineering we can do. That field is progressing rapidly, but at the same time, we're still stuck with that bottleneck. Right. And if you can remove that, we're going to experience a Cambrian explosion of innovation in biotech.

[00:17:06] Jarrad Hope: So okay, well, let's assume that, you know we do have a new regulatory environment in where this innovation, like these startups in biotechnology and regenerative therapies can, can thrive, right? Vitalia city. What? I guess, like there must be some criticisms to to that ideal concerns, especially if there's been like these issues in the past, like how can we, you know, how can we speed up the process and, you know, avoid those kinds of issues at the same time?

[00:17:41] Niklas Anzinger: Yeah, yeah. It's a very good question. It's a very practical question. Right. Because we're an innovator in that space. We do something different and we're pretty much the only ones. Right. So that puts us really into a position where all eyes are on us. Right?

[00:17:56] Jarrad Hope: 

[00:17:56] Niklas Anzinger: So any mistake or any if there's like a person that gets hurt or even dies, there will be amplified a thousand times, even though it happens all the times in the existing systems, right. In the existing

[00:18:07] Jarrad Hope: 

[00:18:07] Niklas Anzinger: Systems, you still do clinical trials and, you know, trials on on volunteers that

[00:18:12] Jarrad Hope: 

[00:18:12] Niklas Anzinger: Take a risk in their lives. So in principle, what we're doing here, we want to build it in a way that it can become a global standard. Right. So

[00:18:20] Jarrad Hope: 

[00:18:20] Niklas Anzinger: That's the answer. Right. So we want to do things in a way where we do have the protocols that make sense. Right. So the FDA the problem is much less the actual safety protocols they want is much more the bureaucratic incentives and administration of them. That's the problem, right?

[00:18:38] Jarrad Hope: 

[00:18:38] Niklas Anzinger: But the FDA and the medical establishment, you know, has real experts that, you know, know the stuff, and they have good safety protocols that we're following and that are reasonable to follow. Right? So we're following them to the highest degree possible, in which it makes sense and in which we can also explain to someone like, how do you do this? In a way that makes sense, right? So whenever I explain to people the idea of like the common law and that it's much more focused on you know, the harms done. Right. So was there something like fraud or crime rather than the prescriptive regulations that just makes a lot of sense to people. Right? It is also how many legal systems around the world already work. So England, UK and the United States are traditionally common law based countries, even though it's largely also superseded now by administrative law. But there's places like Dubai, for example, which operate under a common law, and it's generally seen as very business friendly. And it works. Right. That plus the idea that insurance is in the position of being a regulator.

[00:19:46] Jarrad Hope: 

[00:19:47] Niklas Anzinger: Right.

[00:19:47] Jarrad Hope: 

[00:19:47] Niklas Anzinger: So the idea is, all right, let's not have these legislators, politicians be the regulator because they're not experts. Right. And, you know, they sort of means they have to ask experts. And as a result, what we have is lobbying. Right. So what if instead we say the insurers are the regulators. Right. So there's a competitive market for insurers. So you as a business you can adopt your own regulation that you think fits for you. And but you have to get regulatory insurance right. And then you go to the insurance provider and the insurance provider. They don't want to under regulate you, right. Otherwise they'd have to pay. But they also don't want to overregulate you. Right. Because otherwise they have unreasonably high compliance costs. So they would want to find the right sort of balance between risk and innovation. Right. So that I think is like the secret sauce in prosper that we want to develop a system that is not entirely different. So we are still operating under the same standards. We're still using common law. We still use regulation. Right. And like third party enforcement of these regulations if something goes wrong. But we just have a different mechanisms, how we sort out the good regulations from the bad in ways which doesn't happen in the current system.

[00:21:01] Jarrad Hope: Yeah. I mean, like, I remember first reading that idea of, like, insurance as, like, you know, a regulatory mechanism in, like, I think Milton Friedman's machinery of freedom. Right. And when

[00:21:13] Niklas Anzinger: David.

[00:21:13] Jarrad Hope: Eric

[00:21:13] Niklas Anzinger: Treatments.

[00:21:13] Jarrad Hope: Braman.

[00:21:14] Niklas Anzinger: Yeah. Yeah.

[00:21:14] Jarrad Hope: Yeah.

[00:21:14] Niklas Anzinger: 

[00:21:15] Jarrad Hope: And and Prospero implemented that idea, that was I mean, it was amazing to to see that someone's actually trying that in the real world. And I'm really looking forward to seeing how that plays out. And I think, you know, the other thing is, you know for an industry like, you know, medicine, you know, reputation is really important. And so if there is a not only if, you know, if there is a death or some kind of claim against the insurance, that's like almost catastrophic. You've entirely ruined your business at that point, right? Like it's it's so the incentives are at least aligned in a way where I think this could potentially work. Which is super exciting to see. I think, like, what was before I came here I thought what you were doing was almost too futuristic, right? Like actually implementing these things. But I was surprised to find out that there were real companies there. There were real therapies being offered or, and in the process of happening, I don't know if you can speak to any of the therapies that are being offered today or, and what's coming down, down the pipeline, like what's going to be available for a medical tourist to come to to vitalia.

[00:22:33] Niklas Anzinger: Sure. Yeah. On the point of credibility. So we've been fortunate that with prosper that they've been able to partner with the Garmin clinic, which is a clinic that was here before. And they're have like a very reputed head physician who was also heading the US Olympic Committee before. Right. So and that Doctor Hauser has an IRB rights. So they're authorized to do clinical trials and collect data in an FDA compliant way. Right.

[00:23:03] Jarrad Hope: 

[00:23:03] Niklas Anzinger: So that's reputation and credibility as a starting point is very helpful. Right. And sort of gradually building out that credibility during Natalia, we had some of the best scientists in the world here in longevity and in biotech. We're inviting even former FDA regulators to advise you on these things, to advise us on these things. Right. And what's available now or the first kind of blockbuster therapy is the Minicircle follistatin gene therapy. Right. So there have been a couple of hundred people visiting the island already to get it and to do clinical trials. Brian Johnson has been here twice. The first time he got the therapy, the second time he got it to his dad during vitalia. Right. So and then there's a couple of other therapies in the pipeline, more gene therapies for like treatment of hair loss and skin rejuvenation by a company called Unlimited Bio as other startups who do genetic engineering. And there's one who does like 3D bioprinting of, like, organ tissue and materials for, like, transplants. And there's a really cool company called symbiont, which is doing human augmentation. Right? So it's implanting things like chips into your body, which is actually a very interesting use case. Right, because that industry has been existing in the United States for a while. But really under the regulation of like, body art, like piercing and

[00:24:29] Jarrad Hope: Yeah,

[00:24:29] Niklas Anzinger: Tattoos. Right?

[00:24:30] Jarrad Hope: I

[00:24:30] Niklas Anzinger: So

[00:24:30] Jarrad Hope: Nearly

[00:24:30] Niklas Anzinger: It's a bit

[00:24:31] Jarrad Hope: Did that

[00:24:31] Niklas Anzinger: Gimmicky.

[00:24:31] Jarrad Hope: Myself. Yeah.

[00:24:32] Niklas Anzinger: Exactly. So it's kind of cool. But the reason is that they can't really graduate to medical use cases because then they're regulated by the FDA. And like any new industry, is really starts with the hobbyists and tinkerers. Right? So, you know, imagine software had to cross a chasm where they would have to pay hundreds of millions to deploy, like the first like operating system or something like that. It just would be not possible to really grow up from, like, that stage of, like, the hobbyists and tinkerers to a serious industry. If just to get one product in the market, you'd have to pay hundreds of millions, right? That doesn't work. But here we can really take someone who's like, a leader in that industry and make it easier and cheaper to graduate cybernetics and implants to medical use cases, for example, more precise measuring of biomarkers and things like that. So so I think that is very promising, sort of as a hub to, to build that out.

[00:25:30] Jarrad Hope: Fascinating. I would probably I've kind of gone on a bit of a journey around, like the specific, you know embedding of chips at least. Right? Like, I love

[00:25:40] Niklas Anzinger: 

[00:25:40] Jarrad Hope: The idea of, you know, cybernetics. And, you know, how this can, you know, help support us in terms of, like, you know, tracking our biometrics and improving our health. And there was a time where, like, I was really excited by the promise of, like, injecting one of these little RFID pills, which you could then write, you know, a certain amount of data on. For me, like the dream at the time was to implement like a private key that I could then use to sign transactions with. Right. You know, there's some limitations around that. But, you know, certainly over overcoming I guess like, today I have more, you know concerns around, you know, totalitarian governments and digital ID and, like, how that might be used against me in the future. So that's ultimately why I didn't get it. But the general premise, I think, is really fascinating. Yeah.

[00:26:30] Niklas Anzinger: Yeah. And you said something interesting before, right? So that it might be too futuristic.

[00:26:36] Jarrad Hope: Right.

[00:26:36] Niklas Anzinger: Right? That's actually some like a real trade off that we're dealing with, right? Because on the one hand, we want to make all that stuff happen. On the other hand, like, anything that's, like too far out there or controversial, like, it was always inviting, like critics and hit pieces

[00:26:53] Jarrad Hope: 

[00:26:53] Niklas Anzinger: And all of that. Right. So what I do think is important to recognize for Vitalia and for prosper is to not like go to the most like radical or new things. Right? So that's not necessarily even the best use case. The best use case is actually stuff that we know works right, but still would have to go through the entire pipeline. Right? So especially because the model is you have to approve every different use case which just doesn't make sense for example, in the case of gene therapies. Right. So in the case of gene therapies, what matters or what influences the risk profile is the viral vector, basically the way you get into the human body. So right. So once that is approved that basically is the risk profile. But it's not like in what like payload you're doing it or for what specific use case you're curing it. You could really address very specific things through gene therapy. So the current regular model the regulatory model just doesn't make sense. And there's a lot of stuff out there that we just know it's safe. But because the risk profile is basically proven from because one use case was approved or we know one, that one use case works, but we'd have to have other use cases approved, which doesn't make sense. So this is actually really the most interesting thing to do here, right? Because you don't need to prove out its that it's safe, right? You already know it's safe. These are the most interesting things to develop here and to get them to market faster. Right. So

[00:28:22] Jarrad Hope: Yeah,

[00:28:22] Niklas Anzinger: And

[00:28:22] Jarrad Hope: I was

[00:28:23] Niklas Anzinger: Also.

[00:28:23] Jarrad Hope: Surprised. That was like the sorry. It was the biggest learning that I think I took away from Vitalia

[00:28:27] Niklas Anzinger: 

[00:28:28] Jarrad Hope: City. That was there was a bunch of like a wealth of data on all of these different therapies from countries all over the world that,

[00:28:34] Niklas Anzinger: 

[00:28:34] Jarrad Hope: You know, basically shown its safety profile in some way. They've existed for for a while. And it's just a matter of, you know, bringing those to, to market and kind of reducing some of the barriers or hurdles to actually getting it there. Which is fantastic, you know.

[00:28:51] Niklas Anzinger: Yeah. Exactly. So I think that's the the most interesting use case. I mean we all want to do the really cool futuristic stuff right. But as you also often learn as an entrepreneur, you want to solve a real problem, right? And sometimes there's a faster, more direct way. Or you can build on things that already exist to solve that problem, right? You don't need to use the fanciest new technology or whatever, right? So it's just right. How can you save many people's life or make them live longer with what we already know works? There's a lot out there. And I just one thing to mention, I think my prediction was, if it's really just us in here and prosper, then we will just get more conservative over time, right? So.

[00:29:34] Jarrad Hope: 

[00:29:34] Niklas Anzinger: And just because, well, we have an incentive to go more into that sort of proven safe but high impact stuff, right? So if people do too much of it, then we might get like more regulatory e

[00:29:49] Jarrad Hope: Yeah.

[00:29:49] Niklas Anzinger: Right? So that's why we need

[00:29:51] Jarrad Hope: Innovation

[00:29:51] Niklas Anzinger: A multitude

[00:29:51] Jarrad Hope: Needs

[00:29:51] Niklas Anzinger: Of

[00:29:52] Jarrad Hope: Competition.

[00:29:52] Niklas Anzinger: New locations. Yeah.

[00:29:53] Jarrad Hope: Yeah.

[00:29:53] Niklas Anzinger: That's why we need a multitude of new locations. Right. Because we just see how human incentives work here too. Right. So with Italia we want to have different locations. Prospero wants to have different locations. And there should be many more startup city builders who are like, okay as soon to provide competition.

[00:30:13] Jarrad Hope: I mean, absolutely. I mean, that's kind of what I love about the competitive governance idea, right, is that you're actually creating the, you know, you're treating governance as a service and, you know, quote unquote citizens as customers. And you kind of invert the entire issue on a system of incentives. I don't know if you have, like, any places in mind, you know, for the next Vitaly or sites or if Prospero has any particular sites in mind, like where would they be in the world and why?

[00:30:44] Niklas Anzinger: Yeah. I mean it just seems to me that the last couple of years and I've been talking to Patri Friedman about this also my podcast, who's been in this industry for like almost two decades. And he said he's never seen like, this abundance of potential partners in

[00:31:01] Jarrad Hope: 

[00:31:01] Niklas Anzinger: The form of jurisdictions and governments like in Latin America, even within the United States, even in Europe and Asia and Africa. So I'm personally most bullish on Africa and Latin America. But I hear like new potential partnerships in jurisdictions all over the world, like regularly and partially sees even more of that. And he said it's never been more more potential locations and many of which in like, really beautiful places. So that's

[00:31:29] Jarrad Hope: What?

[00:31:30] Niklas Anzinger: So I think that's not really. Yeah.

[00:31:31] Jarrad Hope: That's interesting. Like, I mean, I wonder if you have any thoughts or ideas of what to driving that abundance, because it suggests that, like, you know, hosts nation states are willing to do more experimentation, right?

[00:31:44] Niklas Anzinger: Yeah. I think maybe Covid was really a perfect storm. I mean,

[00:31:49] Jarrad Hope: 

[00:31:49] Niklas Anzinger: It really got me to do things differently, and I found so many people that were just realizing the institutional decay in the places they lived in.

[00:31:59] Jarrad Hope: 

[00:32:00] Niklas Anzinger: But in fact, there's apparently this one book that's saying that pandemics have often caused major disruptions in history

[00:32:06] Jarrad Hope: Oh really.

[00:32:07] Niklas Anzinger: When it comes to governance. Yeah. So that's an interesting piece.

[00:32:09] Jarrad Hope: What was the. What's the book. Do you recall the title at all.

[00:32:12] Niklas Anzinger: Now, I don't recall it.

[00:32:13] Jarrad Hope: Okay,

[00:32:13] Niklas Anzinger: I wish I could recall who

[00:32:14] Jarrad Hope: Well,

[00:32:14] Niklas Anzinger: Was

[00:32:14] Jarrad Hope: We'll find

[00:32:15] Niklas Anzinger: Who told

[00:32:15] Jarrad Hope: Out

[00:32:15] Niklas Anzinger: Me

[00:32:15] Jarrad Hope: Later.

[00:32:15] Niklas Anzinger: About it.

[00:32:16] Jarrad Hope: Yeah.

[00:32:16] Niklas Anzinger: Yeah,

[00:32:16] Jarrad Hope: Yeah,

[00:32:16] Niklas Anzinger: Yeah, yeah.

[00:32:17] Jarrad Hope: Yeah. Fascinating.

[00:32:18] Niklas Anzinger: But I think that could have been really a perfect storm. I mean, generally, governments are kind of schizophrenic, right? On

[00:32:24] Jarrad Hope: 

[00:32:24] Niklas Anzinger: The one hand, they treat their own people like cattle and try to squeeze as much out of them as they can, but they typically very friendly to like internationals if they bring like, business or money. Right. So they're trying to the perfect example of that is Portugal. Right. So Portugal has really high taxes on their own citizens and had or had for a while really low taxes for foreigners and very generous investments and visa programs. Right. So I don't think that's the ideal social fabric necessarily, but it shows you a bit the schizophrenic nature of government. So there's always really been a market by governments to get like these investment programs and things like that, as tons of countries where you can buy passports and tons of like nations where you can do like offshore companies and things like that. And I think all of these things are fine. Right. But I think where we really need to go is make this into a larger market. Right? So it's not only like the most wealthy that can sort of have access to these options, right? So what I'm really passionate about is creating these opportunity zones to bring the opportunities directly to the people that need it most. Right? So the ones in like developing nations that don't have access to even the most basic, like financial infrastructure, secure property rights and things like that.

[00:33:42] Jarrad Hope: Yeah. And this is where I definitely align with you a lot and I'd like to get to that in a second. But like you touched upon this idea of expanding the sort of market in general, and I know you've thought about this in the past. And obviously biotechnology is is the one that you're, you're, you know, the field that you're kind of using network states and special zones to, to come into fruition. But what other kind of industries or can we create that you think are the most promising for these SEZs or network states to to kind of get involved with?

[00:34:18] Niklas Anzinger: Yeah, sure. I have a whole list of my blog, like think 30 network state ideas or something like that. So I thought definitely about many different areas. So first off, financial. Right. So especially insurance, I think there could be more competition. There's a couple of interesting domiciles, but they're not very digital.

[00:34:41] Jarrad Hope: 

[00:34:41] Niklas Anzinger: Right. So and I think especially with crypto, it would be interesting to use sort of liquid insurance pools. Right. So from like a Uniswap or whatever whatever. So that could be interesting. And insurance is an enormously important industry in terms of capital formation. Same with crypto and tokenization of real world assets. Right? So I think people in the industry seem to me a bit jaded in crypto because it's like everyone's dream to put real world assets in crypto, but it doesn't

[00:35:13] Jarrad Hope: 

[00:35:13] Niklas Anzinger: Work. And the main reason in my superficial analysis is jurisdictional is just that jurisdictions in the real world just don't accept it. That, like that

[00:35:22] Jarrad Hope: 

[00:35:22] Niklas Anzinger: Nft

[00:35:22] Jarrad Hope: 

[00:35:23] Niklas Anzinger: Represents an entry in like a property title registry or whatever. Whatever. Right. So that's a big one. Even like in many countries, it's really very basic things like functioning electricity and internet, right. That can already up.get like talent clusters growing. Right. So I think thinking about education and talent can, can get a lot of output. Right? Right? So get, like, the smartest people from a region to a place where they can be most productive. And it's really just these basic things, like in places like Africa. I think Etana is doing that to a large extent. It's a startup city in Nigeria. Right?

[00:36:03] Jarrad Hope: 

[00:36:03] Niklas Anzinger: So just a basically campus where you get like the smartest people, tech entrepreneurs in an environment where they don't have all the hassle, where they have institutions where they can incorporate a company and things like that. I mean, I'm personally very passionate about hard tech in general. So things like energy.

[00:36:21] Jarrad Hope: 

[00:36:21] Niklas Anzinger: These are kind of harder to scale, right? Because energy really needs large markets. But you can think about things in creative ways, right? So, you know, nuclear fission would be the more interesting use case. Nuclear fusion is not there yet. And once it will be, it might not even be the biggest regulatory problem. But much of energy in Africa is really the problem of, like, state owned national monopolies, right? So if you

[00:36:45] Jarrad Hope: 

[00:36:45] Niklas Anzinger: You can even have like economic zones that are like solar parks and things like that, or wind parks that are able to provide these things privately.

[00:36:55] Jarrad Hope: Yes. South Africa is a great example of that, right? And I think the, the AfriForum actually developed out their own solar field or solar farm. But then the government came down and, you know, shut the whole thing down. And so they have to endure these rolling blackouts every day, which is just kills all small and medium enterprises because they can't operate without energy. Right. So it's super

[00:37:18] Niklas Anzinger: Yeah,

[00:37:19] Jarrad Hope: Fundamental

[00:37:19] Niklas Anzinger: Yeah.

[00:37:19] Jarrad Hope: To get these basic infrastructures in place. I guess like yeah. Okay, cool. Yeah. And I guess, like, on the, the opportunities for, you know for people who could really benefit from this and you're like, you're identifying in Africa, which absolutely is the case. I want to kind of like, touch on your most recent blog article where you were talking, you know, about the evolution of network state building and then showing that these two major branches, as I understood it. Right. One is, you know, jurisdiction versus first, and the other one is like community building first. I'm very curious to hear a bit more of your thoughts around that and like, you know, why are these the two dominant branches? Which one do you favor? And do you see any other forms of this coming out in the future? And how do how does that apply to something like, you know, Africa.

[00:38:18] Niklas Anzinger: Sure. So for a bit of context, so many people are kind of hearing about this. What's happening in this space for the first time through Facebook, the network state.

[00:38:29] Jarrad Hope: 

[00:38:29] Niklas Anzinger: Right. So and the first intuition is that it's like another online thing, but biology

[00:38:36] Jarrad Hope: 

[00:38:37] Niklas Anzinger: Is actually explicitly talking about like, new, like micronation, seasteading, charter cities and doing things in the real world. Right. And he's basically following up on a history where that happened. Right. So you know, the Seasteading Institute has been pioneering these things and micronations have existed for a longer amount of time. And jurisdictional innovation is nothing new. Right? Estonia providing the E-residency program and things like that. Charter cities. Paul Romer 2009 is something that has inspired a couple of projects. And what was kind of the model that came out of that is the jurisdiction first model. Right. So jurisdiction first is that you start with like government negotiations, making a lot of legal contracts, then you get some land and then you build infrastructure there, and then you want people to come. Right? So you know, which is great, but there's a bit of a chicken and the egg problem. Right? So without that infrastructure, people won't come. Right? So but without people, it's not very economical or it's hard to plan for what infrastructure you need to meet that demand just from a company building capital efficiency point of view. Right. So you're kind of taking a big bet and a lot of risk with a lot of upfront capital requirements. So Prospero or Aetna or Amazon basically have that first. And biology spoke. The network state is basically an iteration on that and suggesting a new strategy. So it's flipping the model on its head. It's saying why don't we go like demand first community first we go with these highly aligned online communities that, like, meet in the cloud and then have them like crowdfund territory and sort of materialize or spawn up in the real world.

[00:40:25] Jarrad Hope: 

[00:40:25] Niklas Anzinger: So that I think I would roughly associate with projects like Afropolitan or Praxis, which

[00:40:33] Jarrad Hope: 

[00:40:33] Niklas Anzinger: Develop these highly aligned online communities that much of it is actually gathering together in, in the real world. And and then they're starting, then they're talking to to governments and getting land or territory. Right. So so my take on it is I think it's overlooking a bit so it's not solving the challenge. Right. So the first model. Yes, there's a point. But you know, these projects are successful, right? So prosperous Amazon. Amazon especially is doing really well in terms of like iterating around users or customer needs, right? Sudama resigned as a charter city on mainland Honduras, whose main customer is Honduran blue collar workers. And

[00:41:16] Jarrad Hope: 

[00:41:16] Niklas Anzinger: They do a fantastic job and they're very capital efficient. Right. So but still, the idea is valuable. Maybe you can iterate faster and it's even cheaper to start a new startup. But then the challenge for projects that start with community first is what if the government negotiation takes like longer than you thought like that? That can take years longer. Right. It's very difficult to sustain that excitement and momentum with movement like that before,

[00:41:47] Jarrad Hope: 

[00:41:47] Niklas Anzinger: Because

[00:41:47] Jarrad Hope: 

[00:41:48] Niklas Anzinger: Like a real place brings stickiness, right? It is really a flag in the ground, and it creates permanence. Right. So this I think, is easier for these online communities and movements to fizzle out, which is not a reason

[00:42:02] Jarrad Hope: Yeah.

[00:42:02] Niklas Anzinger: Against them. Right? So the idea is that you can just do many more startups to the starting line that do this. But my thinking is there's actually a way to overcome that problem. Right. So to start, because my analysis is as a startup, you need to get very you get your highest strength, you develop in the areas you need to survive. Right. So for places like crossfire, that's legal and government contracts and things like that for like Afropolitan and Praxis, that's community building. But you don't get strong in other things that you need later down the road. Right? So you need to develop a strategy where you need to get good at both from the beginning, or both are kind of part of what you're doing. And that's where the pop up city model comes in,

[00:42:47] Jarrad Hope: 

[00:42:47] Niklas Anzinger: Right? So with the pop up city model, like Vitalik Buterin did this experiment in Montenegro, where he brought like hundreds of people together from the Ethereum community and aligned frontier technology communities like Synbio or longevity and things like that. And it led to a real feeling of, hey, I have like the density of like a San Francisco in terms of the people I want to hang out with. Right. And it is in a location where you can, like talk to the local government and Montenegro. That was actually the new prime minister we talked to and like, hey, can we stay and can we get like a special economic zone, right. And kind of this forces you to do both things at the same time. You need the community to succeed, and you need to talk to a jurisdiction to allow you to be there. Right.

[00:43:37] Jarrad Hope: 

[00:43:37] Niklas Anzinger: And you can like, sprint that process, right. So you can show the host government, especially at the time now where you have the abundance of jurisdictions, hey, do you want this here? We need to get these things done fast, right. So here is like the different laws we need. We have the templates for that now. Right. So this is just a way to sprint the entire process. So that's what we did with Battaglia basically. Right. So we have we basically now a physical and an online community that has spent a lot of time together in the real world and has access to and has a deal with an existing jurisdiction. Right. And I think that is something that network state projects or startup societies should gravitate towards, right? Because it's also cheap, right? It's kind of an MVP. We did our pop up city basically with 200 K in Los. We could have done it without a loss even there's models to do that.

[00:44:31] Jarrad Hope: Nero. Absolutely. I mean, I definitely think, like, you know, the online community first is is difficult to maintain the enthusiasm and, you know, the the hype, let's say. Right, especially when you're dealing with long lead times in, you know, signing contracts with governments and actually, you know, getting territory. And then certainly the you know, real property development that you have to do for people to even exist, you know, in, in the space that you have. And, you know, if you get all of that done, then, like, you know, you're at this point where it's almost like a build it and then they'll come kind of environment where you now can start onboarding people and there's something real and tangible that they can participate in. And the pop up city, you know, whether it's Edge City or Zulu and all of these sort of forks Vitalia, I think, started similarly. Right. Like you.

[00:45:21] Niklas Anzinger: Let's say we're all forks of.

[00:45:23] Jarrad Hope: Right, right.

[00:45:25] Niklas Anzinger: 

[00:45:25] Jarrad Hope: I think they're all great. Like, they're great environment to be in, right? Because you are around like minded people and, you know it's it's a really surreal experience. Because most of my life, you know, I'm most of the people around me do not have the same interests as I do. Right? I have actually been thinking about it in slightly different ways. Or another potential approach.

[00:45:53] Niklas Anzinger: 

[00:45:53] Jarrad Hope: So

[00:45:53] Niklas Anzinger: 

[00:45:53] Jarrad Hope: I want to throw it your way and see see how you think about it. I definitely come from the internet first side of of the camp. Right. Like this is like Tim May Libertaria in cyberspace where he was like, identifying, you know, seasteading. He was identifying, like, special zones and, you know, was concerned about some of the physical implications But, you know, that sort of cypherpunk movement saw creating jurisdictions in in cyberspace being a potential reality. And that's kind of how I view Bitcoin and Ethereum in some ways. Right. They are these jurisdictions that do manage. They have a very defined border, what's on chain and what's off chain. And they maintain their autonomy. But like, you know, the issue with that is that it is only internet first. Right? And like, you know, there are challenges, as you've highlighted in terms of like getting real assets on chain, represented on chain and more, more importantly, legitimately done. So. I think where I've been kind of, you know, challenged with is, is like, okay, well, the cost of like setting up a jurisdiction is, you know, is is doable. But, you know, it requires significant amount of time. Building out an online community is also quite difficult. So for the time being, with, let's say, logos in particular, I've only been focusing on strengthening the jurisdiction that's in cyberspace. But what I want to do is connect that to how you know, political organizations tend to work, right? And when I say that, I'm talking about like, say, party organizations or machine politics, like political machines and the reason why I highlight political machines is because they did what's a form of what's called like clientelism.

[00:47:44] Jarrad Hope: And so they actually just did local government helping the people on the ground where they're at. And the reason they do that is so they can create loyal voters so they can then you know, have a large voting base to, to to take government jobs or, and govern more governance in that particular region, if not further. So whether it's a city or a state or a borough or so on I think there's a lot of ideas around that that are actually really applicable. And the reason I think that is, is kind of similar to how, you know, cul de sac or city dao or cabin, you know, that they kind of creating this sort of like pop up semi-permanent villages, but like immigrants have been doing this in cities for ages. They've been setting up ethnoburbs or, you know, ethnic enclaves within, you know, a few blocks of a city that they will come in and like, they'll buy like, certain territory. Or territory, but properties. And ultimately, once they get a density of people similar to a pop up community, right. Like they start having their own institutions, right? And own own ways to interact.

[00:48:56] Jarrad Hope: So I'm wondering like where I'm going with this is like, well, maybe that might be another potential path where like, you find high trafficked crypto hotspots, maybe like Berlin, for example, you start trying to get property within a certain region. And then, you know, get like the laundromats and like the convenience stores and so on to accept crypto. But at the same time, you're helping people in that community with, like, real problems. And instead of getting them to, to vote per se, you're getting them to to use the crypto token or tokenized asset. So and this kind of goes to an idea how I view tokens or coins as like communities of belief and like buying into a coin or a token is like a vote in a sense. So, you know, and then this is something that kind of, you know, enters the real world, does real good for, you know, people potentially. I mean, I don't know if it will, but, you know, hypothetically, it's the case on the ground while being able to entrench this sort of jurisdictional network, estate order in a place and then create like systems of, of insurance, of arbitration and governing services and so on. I don't know if you if you see any issues with that or I don't know how you think about those ideas.

[00:50:18] Niklas Anzinger: Yeah. So it's nothing wrong with that. I mean, that's in fact part of what many of these multi-jurisdictional network states projects will are doing. Right. So,

[00:50:28] Jarrad Hope: 

[00:50:29] Niklas Anzinger: I just think it's relatively the physical part is relatively undervalued, right.

[00:50:37] Jarrad Hope: 

[00:50:37] Niklas Anzinger: Simply because that's just where governments are much more present and are blocking progress. Right. So

[00:50:43] Jarrad Hope: 

[00:50:44] Niklas Anzinger: In the cyber space, the pace of innovation has been very fast and very rapid. Right. But I think really many of the bottlenecks are translating that into the physical world. Right. So governance is basically virtual. It's rules. Right? It's incentive incentives and institutions, but enforced in the real world. Right. So much of the outcome, for example, putting someone in prison or, you know, giving someone a drug or therapy are all done in the physical world. We're all existing in meatspace, right? So many of the endpoints of things are in the real world. Right? So and the virtual world makes all that much more efficient and effective. Right. So but but if we don't control these endpoints, I think we the we won't realize these visions in a more complete way. But and I think this is really where the innovation has been lagging. Right. Simply because

[00:51:39] Jarrad Hope: Definitely.

[00:51:40] Niklas Anzinger: These regulatory institutions and jurisdictions that tell you you can't do this and you can't do that in the real world, right? So the insurance part or the tokenization part, that's like, you know, if you do like this in your hub in Berlin like you can't, write, so you're not allowed to write because you need to register, like, in that jurisdiction, whatever you're doing.

[00:52:02] Jarrad Hope: Yeah, I mean, I definitely see see that challenge, I guess. The thing that kind of maybe gives me a glimmer of hope was the Jewish diaspora had, you know, these structures called. Kugels or Kehillas? I'm definitely mispronouncing that. But these were effectively like states within a state, right? Like they didn't have you know, their own nation at the time. And so this is how they ended up amassing some kind of political power and being able to, to keep their, their community together and, you know, do their own kind of forms of institutions and laws. So I think like it's it's it's definitely, you know, I think there's some parts of that or elements of that that can work. It's definitely not without its challenges. And it'll definitely be faced in the real world. And I absolutely agree that, you know, where we've been lagging is how crypto or, you know, how these, these technologies actually innovate in the real world. And we haven't gotten there yet.

[00:53:08] Niklas Anzinger: Yeah. And

[00:53:09] Jarrad Hope: But

[00:53:09] Niklas Anzinger: There's,

[00:53:09] Jarrad Hope: That's.

[00:53:09] Niklas Anzinger: Like hundreds of different pathways we need to take. Right. There's not just one.

[00:53:13] Jarrad Hope: Yeah,

[00:53:13] Niklas Anzinger: And

[00:53:13] Jarrad Hope: Definitely.

[00:53:14] Niklas Anzinger: So.

[00:53:14] Jarrad Hope: Definitely. Cool. Yeah. So I guess, like I don't have I we're kind of running out of time. But I'm very curious, like, if there's, if there's anything you would like to to tell the audience where to go, you know, where to see your stuff. You know, obviously your podcasts your

[00:53:35] Niklas Anzinger: 

[00:53:35] Jarrad Hope: Blog, that sort of thing. Please let them know.

[00:53:37] Niklas Anzinger: Sure. Yeah. Vitalia city. Right. So we're open all year. We're just announce another summer program in July and there's like three sub conferences. So for short term and long term visits. So check out our website where you find that quite easily. We all live together in that one donut tower on a tropical Paradise where you're in right now. So highly encourage your listeners to check it out and to build stuff with us. I also will say, is this not only like for biotech founders, in fact, our distribution is about 50 over 50. So 50% biotech. The other something else. Right. So there's a lot of like AI, crypto, hardware, healthcare, stuff that we also need to build on this mission to make death optional. Right? So from things like incentives, insurance for health care and things like that. So so if you feel what you're doing is aligned with that mission we're on and longevity, then you're more than welcome there. Or if you generally are longevity enthusiast, we're gonna also focus more on healthy living and stuff like that. So check it out and visit us.

[00:54:48] Jarrad Hope: Awesome. Thanks. And I guess, like, if anyone's more interested in these topics is there any recommended reads or books that you would like to throw their way?

[00:54:58] Niklas Anzinger: Yeah. So Stranded technologies.com my blog and podcast. Right.

[00:55:02] Jarrad Hope: Yeah. Know.

[00:55:03] Niklas Anzinger: So you see a lot of the authors there that have influenced my journey. So J. Storrs Hall, where's my flying car, for example, or Eli Dorado, hard tech influencer who's a venture

[00:55:14] Jarrad Hope: 

[00:55:14] Niklas Anzinger: Partner with my fund Infinita so or Patri Friedman himself one of the OGs in the startup City space. So or Tom W Bell on the legal system. So there's lots of content there to get started on this journey.

[00:55:27] Jarrad Hope: Absolutely. Cool. Well thank you very much.

[00:55:31] Niklas Anzinger: Thanks for having